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Grumbo написал(а):

Я предлагаю подождать ответа Виктора.

Я пропустил какой-то вопрос?


VIC написал(а):

Я пропустил какой-то вопрос?

Нет, только ссылки в первую очередь адресовались Вам. Выскажите своё мнение об этих цитатах, о чём они говорят по-Вашему мнению?


Grumbo написал(а):

Нет, только ссылки в первую очередь адресовались Вам. Выскажите своё мнение об этих цитатах, о чём они говорят по-Вашему мнению?

Пока мне времени хватило определить только, что в контексте не все так однозначно, как в приведенных вами "филе" цитат :)

Например в вашем цитировании

Grumbo написал(а):

Орсон Пратт " и когда святые были изгнаны из округа Джексон,почти все ожидали, что будут снова, быстро туда возвращены и всякий рассматривался как отступник, кто сказал бы, что не вернутся обратно, самое позднее через 5-10 лет"Journal of Discourses, Bd. 3, S. 17

скромно не упоминается, что сказано Орсоном Пратом несколько предложений далее:

Дядька-1 написал(а):

I was appointed to visit all the Saints in Clay County, to strengthen them, and i proved to them from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants that it would be very many years before Zion should be redeemed; and some would believe it, and some otherswould think that brother Pratt was rather weak in the faith; but I endeavored to show them that such and such things had got to be fulfilled before the redemption of Zion; and time has proved the truth of what i advanced.

Отредактировано VIC (30-06-2008 21:39:55)


VIC написал(а):

скромно не упоминается, что сказано Орсоном Пратом несколько предложений далее:

И это вполне логично, так как обращение Пратта были сделаны годы спустя, и когда стали задаваться вопросы об исполнении пророчества.


VIC написал(а):

как в приведенных вами "филе" цитат

Извините за "филе"  но выкладывать сюда простыни выступлений ,предварительно их переведя, нет времени совсем.


Grumbo написал(а):

Орсон Пратт 1870 год
"Мы уверены, что вернёмся в Джексон и построим столицу там. Ещё есть много тех, кто прошли через много горя, которые ещё живут в вере о возвращении в Джексон и о вещах, которые произойдут, и верят так крепко как твёрд и нерушим трон всемогущего"
Journal of Discourses, Bd. 13, S. 138

Journal of Discourses, Bd. 13, S. 138 -
Does this look like justice? Is this even-handed justice& It does not seem to agree with my ideas of justice any more than the proceedings of the mobocrats in Missouri, Ohio or Illinois. When ,therefore, the American nation, as a nation, by the voice
of her Representatives, Senators and President, sanctions a law to deprive American citizens of their citizenship to rob them of their houses and lands, and then deprive them of their liberty, because of a difference of religious belief and practice, I think the nation is pretty well ripened,  will not take much more to prepare them for the fulfillment of the prophecies which I have been repeating. I do not know how long-suffering the Lord is. It is a good thing that He has wisdom knowledge and understanding, that He is not a human being, or He would get wrath and swallow up the people in a moment. It is a good thing that you and I do not have people to deal with according to our feelings. God is a
long-suffering being. He has fulfilled a great many things pertaining to this people during forty years past. There are a great many more to be fulfilled in relation to us, and in relation to the nation which is persecuting us; but whatever the final result may be, whether  the American Congress pass laws to persecute us or not; whether they rob us of our houses and lands or not; whether they imprison us and send us for five years to a Penitentiary or a military camp or not, there is one thing sure-as sure as the sun shines forth in yonder heavens, so sure will the lord fulfill one thing with regard to this people. What is that? He will return them to Jackson county,and in the western part of the State of Missouri they will build up a city which shall be called Zion, which will be the head-quarters of this Latter-day Saint Church; and that will be the place where the prophets, apostles and inspired men of God will have their head-quarters. It will be the place where the Lord God will manifest Himself to His people, as He has promised in the Scriptures as well as in modern revelation.
"Do you believe that?" - says one.
Just as much as we believed, long before it came to pass, what has taken place. The world can believe what has taken place, because it has been fulfilled. The Latter-day Saints believe in prophecies before they take place. We have just as much confidence in returning to Jackson county and the building of a great central city that will remain there a thousand years before the earth passes away, as the Jews have in returning to Jerusalem and re-building the waste places of Palestine. In fact we have more faith than they have; for they have been so many generations cast out of their land that their descendants have almost lost their faith in returning. But the Latter-day Saints are fresh, as itwere. There are many of the old stock who, passed through all those tribulations I have named, still living,
whose faith in returning to Jackson county, and the things that are coming, is as firm and fixed as the throne of the Almighty. We know the future destiny of this kingdom as well as we know its past history, that is concerning the general events which are to transpire.

I am taking up too much of your time. May the Lord bless us as a people; bless us with wisdom, with understanding, with power with the heavens, with union, with peace among ourselves; bless us with righteousness,  and joy in the Holy Ghost; bless us with the spiritual gifts of His kingdom, multiply his favors upon us and upon our generations after us, forever and ever, is my prayer in the name of Jesus Christ.


Grumbo написал(а):

Орсон Пратт 1870 год
"Бог пообещал в 1832 году, что мы вернёмся  в округ Джексон и построим город Сиона и храм святейший, где был заложен краеугольный камень,до того как умерло бы поколение  тогда живущее."

"Мы верим в это обещание, как верим во все обещания исшедшие от Господа. И святые ожидают с уверенностью в исполнение обещания в продолжении поколения, которое было в 1832 году,также как солнце восходит утром и заходит вечером. Почему? Потому, что бог не может лгать. Он исполнит все обещания свои. Он так сказал. Это должно произойти. Это наша уверенность."
Journal of Discourses Bd. 13, S. 362

Journal of Discourses Bd. 13, S. 362 -

God has been with us from the time that we came to this land, and I hope that the days of our tribulation are past. I hope this, because God promised in the year 1832 that we should, before the generation then living had passed away, return and build up the City of Zion in Jackson County; that we should return and build up the temple of the Most High where we formerly laid the corner stone. He promised us that He would manifest Himself on that temple, that the glory of God should be upon it; and not only upon the temple, but within it, even a cloud by day and a flaming fire by night.
We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set tomorrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to pass. This is our faith. It will depend upon the conduct of the Latter-day Saints whether we suffer more tribulation. We may suffer tribulation although we are righteous in every respect, though there were no sin found in the midst of the people. Why? Because the wicked always did persecute the righteous, they always did hate the principles and plan of salvation; still we have greater claim upon the arm of Jehovah for protection and assistance when we keep His commandments and love and serve Him.


Grumbo написал(а):

Орсон Пратт 1870 год
"Мы ожидаем с уверенностью, что город, который назовётся Сионом, который должен был быть построен, что было  определено богом, на том участке земли, который был избран и где заложен краеугольный камень,храм, который будет построен в этом поколении, как было дано в откровении. Мы ожидаем этого с уверенностью, как мы ждём восхода солнца утром и заката вечером или также как знаем и
верим в исполнение всех замыслов Господа, нашего бога...
Но противники говорят:" 39 лет прошло и что? Поколение ещё не прешло, все люди, что жили 39 лет назад ещё живы, но прежде чем они умрут - всё исполнится."
Journal of Discourses Bd. 14, S. 275

Journal of Discourses Bd. 14, S. 275 -

Let me read a few passages in the Book of Covenants. Thirty-nine years ago a revelation was given, a passage or two of which I will now read; "A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith and six Elders, as they united their minds and lifted up their voices on high. Yea the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken again by the mouth of his prophets, for the gathering of his saints, to stand on Mount Zion, which shall be the city of the New Jerusalem which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot which is appointed by the finger of the Lord in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith and others with whom the Lord was well pleased."

I now notice another prediction: "Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city of the New Jerusalem shall be built up by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation, for verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house." We will now read an item from the sixth paragraph: "The sons of Moses," that is, those that pertain to the two priesthoods, "the sons of Moses and the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be established in this generation upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed; and the sons of Moses and of Aaron," that Is, those who receive the two priesthoods "shall be filled with the glory of God upon Mount Zion in the Lord's house, whose sons are ye, and also many whom I have called and sent, forth to build up my church; for whosoever is faithful to the obtaining of these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying of their calling are sanctified by the spirit unto the renewing of their bodies, that they become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom and the elect of God," etc.

Here then we see a prediction, and we believe it. Yes! The Latter-day Saints have as firm faith and rely upon this promise as much as they rely upon the promise of forgiveness of sins when they comply with the first principles of the Gospel. We just as much expect that a city will be built, called Zion, in the place and on the land which has been appointed by the Lord our God, and that a temple will be reared on the spot that has been selected, and the corner-stone of which has been laid, in the generation when this revelation was given; we just as much expect this as we expect the sun to rise in the morning and set in the evening; or as much as we expect to see the fulfillment of any of the purposes of the Lord our God, pertaining to the works of his hands. But says the objector, "thirty-nine years have passed away." What of that? The generation has not passed away; all the people that were living thirty-nine years ago have not passed away; but before they do pass away this will be fulfilled. What is the object of this temple? The object is that the Lord may, according to the order that he has instituted, unveil his face to his servants, that those that are pure in heart and enter into that temple may be filled with the glory of God upon Mount Zion in the lord's house, and, finally, whatever we may be called upon to do, whether it be building temples, cultivating the earth, organizing ourselves into co-operative companies to carry out the purposes and designs of Jehovah; whether we are sent abroad on missions or remain at home, it matters not, all things must be done in order, all things must be performed according to law, so that they will be acceptable in the sight of heaven, and be recorded there for the benefit of the people of God here on the earth. Why? Because God is a God of order, He is a God of law. God is that being that sways his scepter over universal nature and controls the suns and systems of suns and worlds and planets keeps them moving in their spheres and orbits by law; and all His subjects must comply with law here on the earth, that they may be prepared to do his will on the earth as his will is done by the angelic hosts and those higher order of intelligences that reign in his own presence. Amen


Grumbo написал(а):

" Бог сказал в откровении в 1832 году, которое вы можете найти в этой книге, ещё до изгнавния из Джексона, что прежде чем целое поколение умрёт дом Господа будет построен в этом графстве."

"Это было дано 32 года назад. Поколение, которое жило тогда должно было не только заложить дом Господа но и должно его закончить и как только будет готово, величие Господа будет покоиться на нём."

Ну и вы святые верите в это? Я,определённ, и если вы верите в это откровение вы должны ожидать исполнения откровения, точно также как в любое другое данное в последние времена и древние.
Мы, святые ожидаем возвращения в Джексон,чтобы построить там храм прежде чем умрёт все поколение жившее 32 года назад.  Итак, время должно быть довольно близко для начала этой работы."
Journal of Discourses Bd. 17, S. 111

Journal of Discourses Bd. 17, S. 111 -
Now, why is it, Latter-day Saints, that we have been tossed to and fro and smitten and persecuted for these many years? It is because we have disobeyed the law of heaven, we have not kept the commandments of the Most High God, we have not fulfilled his law; we have disobeyed the word which he gave through his servant Joseph, and hence the Lord has suffered us to be smitten and afflicted under the hands of our enemies.
Shall we ever return to the law of God? Yes. When? Why, when we will. We are agents; we can abide his law or reject it, just as long as we please, for God has not taken away your agency nor mine. But I will try to give you some information in regard to the time. God said, in the year 1832, before we were driven out of Jackson County, in a revelation which you will find here in this book, that before that generation should all pass away, a house of the Lord should be built in that county (Jackson County), "upon the consecrated spot, as I have appointed; and the glory of God, even a cloud by day and a pillar of flaming fire by night shall rest upon the same". In another place, in the same revelation, speaking of the priesthood he says that the sons of Moses and the sons of Aaron, those who had received the two priesthoods, should be filled with the glory of God upon Mount Zion, in the Lords house, and should receive a renewing of their bodies, and the blessings of the Most High should be poured out upon them in great abundance.
This was given forty-two years ago. The generation then living was not only to commence a house of God in Jackson County, Missouri, but was actually to complete the same, and when it is completed the glory of God should rest upon it.
Now, do you Latter-day Saints believe that? I do, and if you believe in these revelations you just as much expect the fulfillment of that revelation as of any one that God has ever given in these latter times, or in former ages. We look just as much for this to take place, according to the word of the Lord, as the Jews look to return to Palestine, and to re-build Jerusalem upon the place where it formerly stood. They expect to build a Temple there, and that the glory of God will enter into it; so likewise do we Latter-day Saints expect to return to Jackson County and to build a Temple there before the generation that was living forty-two years ago has all passed away. Well, then, the time must be pretty near when we shall begin that work. Now, can we be permitted to return and build up the waste places of Zion, establish the great central city of Zion in Jackson County, Mo., and build a Temple on which the glory of God will abide by day and by night, unless we return, not to the "new order", but to that law which was given in the beginning of this work. Let me answer the question by quoting one of these revelations again, a revelation given in 1834. The lord speaking of the return of his people, and referring to those who were driven from Jackson County, says - "They that remain shall return, they and their children with them to receive their inheritances in the land of Zion, with songs of everlasting joy upon their heads." There will be a few that the Lord will spare to go back, there because they were not all transgressors. There were only two that the Lord spared among Israel during their forty years travel - Caleb and Joshua. They were all that were spared, out of some twenty-five hundred thousand people, from twenty years old and upwards, to go into the land of promise. There may be three in our day, ora half dozen ora dozen spared that were once on that land who will be permitted to return with their children, grand-children and great-grand-children unto the waste places of Zion and build the up with songs of everlasting joy.
But will they return after the old order of things that exists among the Gentiles - every man for himself, this individualism in regard to property? No, never, never while the world stands. If you would have these revelations fulfilled you must comply with the conditions thereof. The Lord said, concerning the building up of Zion when we do return - "Except Zion be built according to the law of the celestial kingdom, I can not receive her unto myself". If we should be permitted, this present year, 1874, to go back to that county, and should undertake to build up a city of Zion upon the consecrated spot, after the order that we have been living in during the last forty years, we should be cast out again, the Lord told not acknowledge us as his people, neither would he acknowledge the works of our hands in the building of a city. If we would go back then, we must comply with the celestial law, the law of consecration,  the law of oneness, which the Lord has spoken of from the beginning. Except you are one you are not mine. Query, if we are not the Lord's who in the world or out of the world do we belong to? Here is a question for us all to consider. There is no other way for us to become one but by keeping the law of heaven, and when we do this we shall become sanctified before God, and never before.


Grumbo написал(а):

" Не нужно ожидать из того что открыл нам бог, что большое количество тех, кто тогда был в церкви и были изгнаны, будут иметь привилегию вернуться в Джексон и унаследовать землю. Это будет дано только некоторым, тем, кто будет жив и увидит тот день и вернётся чтобы унаследовать землю, вы и ваши дети,внуки и правнуки, соотвественно обещанию"
Journal of Discourses, Bd. 17, S. 291-292)

Journal of Discourses, Bd. 17, S. 291-292 -

We are promised that after much tribulation comes the blessing. The Lord says-"I the Lord have decreed a certain decree that my people shall realize, that after their tribulations they shall be redeemed, and restored to the lands of their inheritances." Little did we suppose when we were driven out from Jackson County, the place where God has promised to give his saints their inheritances, and in the regions round about, that nearly half a century would pass over our heads before we would be restored back again to that land. This long period of tribulation, and the dispersion from our homes and inheritances have been the cause perhaps of a great many going down to the grave without having the opportunity and privilege of returning to participate in the blessings that were promised. Now, it would be a source of comfort and consolation to those who are still living, to whom this promise was made, if they could be assured in their own minds that they would live here in the flesh to behold that day. Butt let me say a few words in relation to this. We need not expect, from what God has revealed, that a very great number of those who were then in the Church and who were driven, will have the privilege of returning to that land.
We need not expect anything of the kind. "Why not?" inquires one. Because the Lord informs us that but a few of those who were then driven out should stand to receive their inheritances. We read this, or indications thereof, in several revelations the language being something like this - "You shall be persecuted from synagogue to synagogue, and from city to city, and but few shall stand to receive their inheritances."Now if a great portion of those who were driven out should live and they should be restored back again they might afterwards say - "This does not seem to agree with the revelation, here are pretty much all that were driven out. But this will not be the case. When you come to count up, a few years hence, those who were driven forth from that land, you will find that there will be very few indeed; there will, however, be some out of that number, but only a very few. There will be some that will live to behold that day, and will return and receive their inheritances they and their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, according to the promise.
We have a special promise in relation to that land given to us as Latter-day Saints a promise which I believe I have formerly repeated in this house. It was first given on the 2nd day of January 1831, at a general conference of pretty much all the Saints who lived in the State of New York, held in the house where the Church was first organized. The revelation was given in their presence, written by a scribe as the sentences fell from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph. Among the great things then made known was the following- "I hold forth and deign to give to yon
greater riches even a land of promise, a land upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord shall come; and this is my covenant with you, that I will give it unto you and unto your children after, you for an everlasting inheritance;and you shall possess it in time and possess it again in eternity never more to pass away." If there are any strangers here I will say, for their information, that this is the reason why we call that land a land of promise. And though we have been deprived of it now for upwards of forty years, some of us hold deeds for portions of it which
we purchased, paying our moneys to the United States officials, who sold it to us at the government price, but we were not permitted to live upon the lands thus purchased. You may think this rather a curious thing in this great American republic, one of the most liberal governments on the face of the whole earth, but if it is a strange thing it is known as the truth to thousands and tens of thousands that we were dispossessed of our inheritances. The land is still there but it is occupied by those who do not own it.


Grumbo написал(а):

Материал преподнесён корректно, иначе бы защитники церкви не стали бы писать оправдательные опусы. Подлог виден сразу. Ты, прошу не путай получаемую инфу из интернета и из архивов. Критиками достаточно времени всё прочитать,сравнить, обдумать, сформулировать - это не посты на форум клацать :)

Из того материала, что был мне доступен, я дал выписки из оригиналов выступлений, чтобы их можно было сравнить с Мишиным "Материал преподнесён корректно". Чтобы не офф-топить в этой теме, переношу обсуждение "корректного преподнесения" в тему: Неофициальные источники Церкви .


Думаю, что нелишне будет прочитать этот материал.
Глава 15, стр. 201.


Grumbo написал(а):

Эта версия возникла много позже, когда посыпались обвинения в неисполнении пророчества. Исполнись оно в срок и согласно той интерпретации, которую предполагали изначально, то второй версии толкования никто не стал придумывать :)

Soleilko написал(а):

Ну да, конечно. Пророчество не исполнилось - и придумали другую трактовку, более удобную. Только и всего. :)

Я понимаю, конечно, настрой этих ребят. Им хочется доказать или показать, что Джозеф Смит был лже-пророком, со всеми вытекающими из этого последствиями. Какой же он Пророк, если пророчество не исполнилось  :no: ?

Если отложить в сторону корректность поданого Михаилом материала, то в его ссылках есть действительно интересные исторические и духовные материалы. Последние несколько дней я размышлял над теми словами руководителей, которые мы смогли прочитать из фрагментов их выступлений, опубликованных в "Журнале бесед".
Действительно то поколение и некоторые руководители Церкви тех лет верили и считали, что они являются тем поколением, в котором должны были исполниться откровения о Храме в гр. Джексон. Может оно так и было, не знаю, но я не могу сказать однозначно, что откровение непосредственно относилось к ним. В самом откровении об этом чётко не сказано. Да и из других материалов видно, что Господь знал, что то поколение ещё не готово стать Сионом, так же, как Он знал, что поколение евреев вышедших из египедского плена не ступят на Святую Землю. Но тем не менее и тем и другим Он обещал определённые благословления, которые были впоследствии отменены за согрешения зветных народов.

А вот по поводу пророчества в 84 разделе Учений и Заветов.... Не знаю прочитал ли кто из вас 15 главу из книги "Учения Президентов Церкви. Джозеф Смит", но там есть действительно интересный момент, первый абзац на 204 странице. Интересно, эти слова на антимормонских сайтах приводятся или нет?